Carmen Lincolne on The Sales Scoop, Founder @ Ivy Tech

Automated Transcript

Alastair Cole 0:00

Hello, good afternoon, and welcome to ‘The Sales Scoop’. This is a weekly live show for tech business founders who want to improve how they sell. My name is Alastair Cole. I'm your host for today. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence, and two decades experience in sales and marketing, and I'm delighted to say that I'm joined today by our guest, Carmen Lincolne. Hello, Carmen, Hi, good afternoon,

Carmen Lincolne 0:33

Hello. Al, nice to see

Alastair Cole 0:36

you. It's great to see you. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. It's going to be a great episode. Yep,

Carmen Lincolne 0:43

I'm really looking forward to the chat.

Alastair Cole 0:45

Excellent. So really keen to get into your sales scoop. What is the number one New biz tip you would share with our audience? But I'm really keen that everybody gets to hear a little bit about your story, your journey, and what's happening with Ivy Tech. So tell us a little bit about you and your journey to 2025 please.

Carmen Lincolne 1:07

Yes, I'd love to. So yes, I'm Carmen. I'm the founder of Ivy Tech, and we are basically a services company that supports startups and scale ups with borderless tech teams. I started, actually, previously, in 2018 building software development teams out of Ukraine, and that was, yeah, just the most amazing hub to find developers. It was a really exciting time to provide ethical and stimulating employment for a country that, you know, still needed a bit of a boost, so I would spend a lot of my time there partnering with startups in the US and the UK and Europe to provide the talent. Now, since the war in Ukraine started, we have kind of opened up some other hiring hubs. We still work with a lot of Ukrainian developers and support them where we can and so to our clients, but we have put a big focus on Portugal, for example, as well as one of our hiring hubs.

Alastair Cole 2:09

Yeah, thank you. I mean, I love this concept that you have of like borderless tech teams, right? And you're filling the gap between those people who think about outsourcing and not sure about bringing in internal, dedicated, expensive talents. How do you like Ivy Tech? How are you specialists at filling that gap? Yes,

Carmen Lincolne 2:31

It's a good question. So the way I describe it is we are like the best of three worlds. So we are recruiters, we are outsourcing, and we're employers of records, so our kind of usual client, you know, it's maybe a startup that has a seed stage, or series a stage, and they essentially need to grow their existing tech team by a few more roles. So they come to us, and we work really closely on writing job descriptions, you know, doing a bit of a Gaps Analysis. Who do they actually need in the team? Then our internal recruitment team goes into a borderless market, and in most cases, at the moment, it's Portugal, but to your point, we do have borderless capacity, and we have talent in 10 different countries at the moment. We then put a team together that's really tailored to what the clients need. So we very rarely have developers sitting on a bench waiting for the next project, because, to be honest, nine out of 10 times it's not a fit. You know, like every startup has a different need in terms of technical skill, in terms of mindset, attitudes, experience, maybe a particular focus they have. So we put this team together for them, and we stay engaged as a co employer. So while the startup experiences an in house employee dedication, the developers work full time. They're part of their slack, their Jira, they get a hoodie. You know, most of our developers actually stay on LinkedIn. They don't work for Ivy Tech, but for that particular company. So this becomes their professional home. However, we stay in the background. We manage the contracts, the health insurance. So we do private health, we do lots of other perks and gifts, laptops, regular check ins. So our main focus here is the well being and the retention of the developer. And that synergy works really nicely. We often get to a point where the startups say, Okay, this developer has worked with us now for three, four years through kind of the ivy co employment, we are now ready to relocate this developer to London. You know, we've had relocations to Australia, and we want to take that developer on our payroll, so we do work with the clients then to make that happen as well.

Alastair Cole 4:35

Yeah. I mean, relocation to Australia sounds okay for everybody, and I'm getting, I mean, you know that all the pleasure that comes with the new hire, but without the pain, is that, that sounds like that's what you're offering, and is that? Is that why your retention rate? I read on your website that 93% of people are keeping your talent. Is that why? Or is it a different reason? Yeah.

Carmen Lincolne 5:00

Yeah, the reason our retention rate is quite high is because we stay super close to the developers. So I think that's a risk when startups like to go and find their own. I don't know five developers. I think there is a place for that, probably in the very early days, but it becomes like the effort of keeping your finger on the poles of remote developers, actually quite a lot. So we have a really good process in terms of very regular check-ins and an active flag community. We, you know, occasionally do in person meetings where we get all the developers together in one place, or we do digital parties if in person isn't appropriate or not possible. And I think keeping the finger on our poles, keeping a close relationship with the developers and meeting their needs to where they are, particularly right now with our Ukrainian developers, has resulted in high retention. So I think that's one. And the second one, we work with really cool clients, like we've got FinTech clients that provide payment services to some of the world's largest banks. We work with us. You know, AI driven health tech companies, with ethical investment companies, so with beauty companies. So I think the work our developers doing are really interesting, and we very rarely work with companies where we feel like we can't really sell the vision here, because see ourselves not just as salespeople to customers, which is something we're going to talk about, but also is selling a position to the developers, because the vision is always going to stay in for the next three to five years.

Alastair Cole 6:31

Now, fascinating, and if people want to go and check it out, they can head over to Ivy dash tech.com and read more about you and your case studies where we've got LinkedIn open for chat now. If anybody's got any questions for Carmen on Ivy Tech and also for her upcoming sales group, and given we're on LinkedIn live, Ivy Tech is tearing up a storm with 4000 followers on LinkedIn, so, so check that out too, right? So, you know, without further ado, you know, we go into our backstory a little bit. What's your sales group? What do you bring in for our audience today? What is your one thing, Carmen, that you'd want to share?

Carmen Lincolne 7:15

Yes, my sales group for today is networking, which is a theme that has followed me throughout my life, whether it's a business or personally. I think I'm, yeah, I'm a big networker, and I've seen it to be very effective for a B to B services company.

Alastair Cole 7:33

Yes, and you and I met at a sifted summit in the first few days of October last year. And, you know, I think that's interesting. There's a lot of great things that happen at networking events. It's a, it's a big topic, and we've got some, some sub areas to dive into. You know, I think for a lot of people, certainly for me at the start, that was a, it was a big danger word, like a big, awkward kind of feeling, right? And you, I've seen you there. You love it. Now you love networking. You've developed that, were you always super enthusiastic and positive about it? Or, how have you, how have you built up to being as confident now with networking as you are,

Carmen Lincolne 8:17

I think it's a bit of a skill that everyone can develop. I do think some personalities find networking a little bit easier than others, and I'm definitely more extroverted. I grew up in a very lively church, so I think connecting with people, you know, on a weekly basis, plus events people I'd have met before, has kind of been in my DNA ever since I've been a child. But I must still say, when I started professionally networking, it definitely was quite awkward. And I think what I've learned to tell myself over the years that I think everyone at a networking event, whether it's a big conference like sifted or a 20 person founders dinner, everyone feels a little bit awkward unless you go with a colleague, of course, but if you're just there on your own, I think that is a bit of the spotlight syndrome. It's like, oh, everyone's looking at me. But the fact is, everyone has the same spotlight syndrome, so we're kind of all in the same boat, and that always helps me push through the awkwardness.

Alastair Cole 9:12

Yes, it is. You know, there's still times when it feels like that for me, and I have to remind myself, everybody's here for networking. It's okay to kind of meet somebody and keep moving. And I think that's something that I struggle with, kind of disconnecting after a long time. But actually there's a whole sea of people to meet and we're there for networking. So tell us a little bit about you know, what does networking look like for you now? What are you doing now? What are the big elements? What are the components of your networking? What does it look like for Carmen and Ivy Tech now for you?

Carmen Lincolne 9:48

Yeah, so we have, over the years, really found that networking is one of the most effective kinds of sales strategies for us. I think it's different for the type of business like I think networks. Always great, but particularly for B to P services in a fairly competitive space, like where we are with recruitment and software development, building personal connections is a lot of fun. I find it a lot more fun than in nameless Google ads and b . It usually yields, you know, into long term sales for us, and it's comfortable for both sides of the process I go about. So I set myself KPIs, how many events I'm going to go to, for example, every month I now have two children. They're two and four, so my kind of, you know, event attendance has dropped a little bit since I've had those two little boys, but I still try and go to an event two or three times a month. On top of that, I'm part of a founders network called Opus. They put on regular events. There's an online community as well as an in person community that has really helped to kind of stay involved in a network. And yeah, so I think it's choosing where you want to go? For me, it's a mix of where my target market is, like, you know, like a sifted where we met. There's a lot of startup founders, you know, with great, great ambition and great growth strategy. So that's a really good one. But for me, there's also networking, where I'm just part of a group, like, Opus is not really like a massive sales thing. For me, it's more like, oh, there's other people building companies. What is that? Can we learn together? And sometimes something comes of it, sometimes not, but that's also just a really lovely space to be networking in. And then some, I often go to events as well for my own learning, like I've been to a recent branding workshop, which I desperately wanted to learn about. How do you build a better brand? And that was a really great time to network. There were maybe 30 people, and, yeah, it was actually a really, really good networking event, even though I went for my own learning.

Alastair Cole 11:54

Well, I think that's a really great insight that we talked a little bit about for the show, the fact that you were looking to genuinely learn something that wasn't just about meeting people. So it was kind of like two birds with one stone.

Carmen Lincolne 12:05

Yes, that's right. Yeah. I think networking doesn't always mean it's Web Summit or it's, you know, this kind of business show where there's 1000s of people and everyone is exhausted and burned out by the end of it. I think networking can be a really intimate founder's dinner with six people, or, you know, like the groups I'm part of. I'm part of a few WhatsApp groups as well. And whenever I feel like, okay, there's someone asked a question, and I can actually help out. I offer that person a Cole with me. And vice versa, people have offered me some of their time to polish my LinkedIn profile or other things, and that is all part of networking. I think the absolute key is, when you've made a good connection with someone, how do you stay connected? So I have, you know, like I'm religious about connecting with people on LinkedIn, because, I mean, I'm religious about a few things, so LinkedIn is one of them. There has to be a Connect, either before or after we meet. I do post quite a lot from my profile. And I do this to kind of keep you know, eyeballs, particularly on Ivy Tech. And then I also do a lot of remapping now. So I was saying to my colleague recently, I barely do anything on email anymore. Most of my work is actually done on LinkedIn and WhatsApp these days,

Alastair Cole 13:20

okay? And then talking about LinkedIn online, how, what's your balance between them in real life, which I understand with, you know, a young family that's going to take a bit of a backseat without coming back. How are you? How many kinds of things are online? What kind of online network, networking do you do versus offline?

Carmen Lincolne 13:41

Yeah, I would say online, there's definitely a few select groups and WhatsApp groups I'm part of. So that's something I check every day, you know, following the thread, seeing, did someone ask a question where I can maybe make a connection to someone in my network, or is there a way I can offer value, you know, not, not necessarily, within Ivy Tech. That's one. I'm also a mentor at a kind of startup accelerator that happens online. So that's a really wonderful way to network with other mentors, and mainly all services business owners, and also obviously connecting with the founders. And then in terms of social media, for me, LinkedIn is the main thing. So I try to post two to three times a week. I engage with other people's contents, you know, to give them a boost because they are my friends or business friends, or to just get attention onto the IV profile. Yeah,

Alastair Cole 14:33

great. Okay, that's, that's a good spread. And then in terms of the real in real life, yeah, the in person events. You know, we talked about how sometimes it can feel awkward at the start. What tips do you have for someone watching or listening who thinks that sounds terrible? I know I should be doing it, but what tips would you give them to make it less awkward? How can you

Carmen Lincolne 14:55

help them? Yes, the first one would be mindset. Right? So when I go into a networking event, like I usually actually start with my physical posture, like, roll my shoulders back, you know, pull my tub here, and put a smile on, just to be ready to be fully present. And it gives like the body posture has a lot to do with how you internally feel as well. That's one then I do usually try and have a few kinds of questions up my sleeve. So I think confidently introducing yourself to a group of strangers, or maybe your seat neighbor, if you're sitting at a panel, like, remember, everyone is there to network. Like, yeah, it's just no one knows how to make a start. So if you can be the first brave person, the other person will actually be really thankful. It's very rare that you annoy someone at a networking event, introducing yourself, you know. So you can either look for someone who doesn't have a partner right now they're talking to, or if you see a group, you know, that's not like a crazy, deep conversation, just try and say, Hey, I'm sorry. Can I introduce myself? It would be really nice to meet you. I'm Carmen. You know, I'm the founder of a services company, and then I usually have a few questions up my sleeve, something like, what brought you to the event today? Or what did you think about the panel? Or have you been to this venue before? Just something to break the ice and get the conversation going. So that's something I do usually think about ahead of time, and I always like, adopt a really curious mindset. So instead of like, What can I get out of the event, it's more like, who I wonder who I'm going to meet today. I wonder what I will learn. I wonder what kind of story I will listen to today that I've never heard before. So I think the curiosity mindset changes the way you engage with people at a networking event greatly.

Alastair Cole 16:46

It's massive, isn't it? I think this is where your sales group about networking is. It is so relevant to sales, because there's so many similarities, right? People early on lack confidence, or they've got a big number to chase, or whatever they're trying to grab right, grab the deal, grab the money, grab the client, and it's the same in networking, whereas, actually it's counter intuitive. But you have to just give, yes, give the point of view, listen to them. You know, as my mother would say, when you're talking, you're not learning anything new. Yeah, that's right, yeah, if you listen, if you shut up and listen to them, then most of it is new content. It's interesting. And so I think your mindset as well. So you're arriving physically ready, or you're making an active choice to say, I am physically ready. I'm also mentally ready because I've done a bit of homework and I've got a few things to say. So that readiness, I think that brings confidence.

Carmen Lincolne 17:44

Yeah, absolutely. And in some cases, you know, when I want to be really prepared, I have a look who's going to be there. See if I've got someone in common. Maybe that could make an intro. So if I feel quite strategic about a certain event, then I will try and, like, learn a little bit about the couple of people I would like to meet, and then somehow find a way to strategically approach them.

Alastair Cole 18:11

I love this right? I love this approach because, you know, there'll be hundreds of people there, and often with the apps you can, you can, kind of, you can get people beforehand. And I like going with a list of like 10 people. Will I get to meet them all? Not necessarily, but I've got my target list, and I know you get, you know, half of them. I feel like the events are a success if I speak to those people. So I love that. That is it, the preparation, right? That get gets over the awkwardness, something you've talked about before and with me and also on other podcasts, is being kind of like the real version of yourself, right? And that, that authenticity, which is such a difficult word, because everybody kind of knows what it is, but it's hard to bring it. What are your How do you what would be your advice to people who are feeling like they're inauthentic? What could they do? Or how could they change their mindset?

Carmen Lincolne 19:10

Yeah, yeah, I think it's back to the mindset again. It's like when you enter the room, you're not there to take, but you're there to give. And I think don't go with the expectation that I'm going to sift it and I'm coming back with, you know, eight sales calls. And I would often do that, and I just to be and to be honest, I didn't have a lot of fun because I felt like I had to sell. And I usually didn't come back, you know, with a lot of sales codes anyways. Whereas when I go and either I'm really well prepared of who I want to meet, or if I go with a curious mindset saying, I wonder, you know, what kind of conversation I will have today, or I wonder how I can add value today, then yeah, that takes the pressure off, and it makes you a lot more authentic. And to be honest, like I found real friends through a network. Working. You know that I can know that no things I'm going through or that I give a call have coffee with, lunch with so again, you don't. I think if you just go into networking to find clients, it's kind of the wrong attitude today, because networking is so much greater. And I think also, you know the people you meet, they will introduce you and open doors if you're just a good, genuine person that offers, you know, their own network and advice. Because we've all been there like I've had, especially in the early days when I grew Ivy, and also when I worked in my husband's FinTech company for three years, we've had so many generous people that had network, you know, for 1020, years, more than we have offering their networks to us. So there's also almost like a personal debt I feel like I want to repay, and even if you know your early stage founder doesn't fit my perfect ICP, I'm still going to chat to you for now and point you in the right direction, because so many people have done that for me.

Alastair Cole 21:01

Yeah. I mean, there's so many, so many big themes there, right? It is so much broader than just, you know, sales leads. And I think of it kind of like, you know, you are paying it forward. You know, you and I met at SIFT, did we? We don't have a commercial relationship, but you never know about the future, right? And that's it. You want people around you, who you trust, who like, who, crucially, will, you know, introduce you to someone else. I often think of it like that, like, you know, it's a rope. And actually what's helpful is somebody who will introduce you just to, just to one other person, right? Who's closer to, or still, you know, a potential customer. So, that networking affair is a really big deal, right? In terms of going to those events when you get back from sifted or you get back from your dinners, what, what information are you how formally you are treating that? You copy that information down, what information do you capture? What tools are you using? How do you formalize that, that what comes out of networking? Yes,

Carmen Lincolne 22:05

so I do have a bit of a process. I, as I said, I always connect on LinkedIn, and then I've got, we've got a CRM system, we just moved to pipe drive. And then usually I kind of categorize people, whether it's more like my personal connections, where I feel like, oh, this could be a friend or a mentor or someone, you know, that doesn't really fit into the client bucket or anything. It's just someone I would like to kind of keep in my ecosystem and invest in. Then I've got, we've got, kind of the, you know, potential leads label, so they could go into the leads bucket, or into Ambassador so someone who could maybe open doors for us, and we have, like, proper Ambassador agreements with some people, you know, so they obviously get a thank you as well for doing that. And yeah, so these are kind of the three categories I usually put them in, and then I make sure I stay engaged with their content on LinkedIn. I love connecting people. I mean, I've gotten so many people's jobs before I was even in recruitment because I would be part of a group, and sometimes, like, I'm really looking for a marketing person. I'm like, Oh, this client, you know, of mine actually is looking for whatever, or, yeah, whatever it is, I just love looking out how I can connect people and add value in that way.

Alastair Cole 23:27

Yeah. And you know what the thing is, it feels so good, doesn't it? It feels so nice, especially when there's kind of like almost nothing back. There is a little bit of altruism about making that connection. It costs nothing, and feedback from people can be, can be stellar, right? Which, which CRM are you using to put these, these buckets you're talking about, which CRM is your,

Carmen Lincolne 23:46

your choice. We just moved to pipe drive this week. Okay, on monday.com but we didn't really love it, so we moved to pipe drive. Yes, well, very, very new. But I actually used a pipe drive in the past as well, and it was pretty easy to use.

Alastair Cole 24:02

Yeah, we're big fans of it. Our revenue coach platform connects to various CRMs, and Pipedrive is arguably the newest, and because it's newest, it's built in the best is the best way, whereas your sales force is, you know, a huge monster of various products cobbled together, and it's really difficult to integrate with. So Pipedrive is really, really slick. Fantastic look. Thanks. And, you know, one of the really big, like, kind of networking things, one of the big partnership things I've seen about Ivy Tech is your, your recent published strategic alliance with, with forest ventures from Scotland. Can you tell us a bit about that, that partnership, because that's not going to network an event, but it is. It's an international network that you're connected into. Tell us about Yeah.

Carmen Lincolne 24:51

So there's actually a lot of strategic thoughts behind that, and one of them is that really, we wanted to empower. Kind of our internal team to build their own networks, and a lot of them are still fairly at the beginning of their career, and it just takes a lot of time and effort, and they're also very operationally involved in, you know, running Ivy Tech. So for us it is almost like a little, yeah, step step ahead in terms of connecting with founders and startups in Scotland. So we are a sponsor for us, which means we pay to be part of the ecosystem. What we get for that is we are the only partner in the software development recruitment space for them, and they are kind of vouching for us. So they're telling the ecosystem that we are, you know, a trustworthy partner that delivers great value. We are mentioned on their website, newsletter we've been able to present at the event. So it's like, it's breaking the awkwardness a little bit, almost like justifying why we're here. It's like, No, we're part of forests, like we belong here. And what for us do is they take startup founders to large events like latitude in Estonia, slashed bits and pretzels sifted. So we will be part of that, as well as they do a lot of local events in Scotland. So we keep showing up for those. So we become almost like furniture so it's actually a huge networking push, but we already have a label of trust while we enter the room, because of us, and that enables our more, you know, junior colleagues. So they've been going to the Scotland events, for example, and it's just a little bit of an easier way. And they can build their own networks, as well as networks for Ivy Tech. So that's been really exciting,

Alastair Cole 26:39

yes? Well, you know anybody interested in seeing what's happening between Ivy Tech and forest ventures? You can get it on the Ivy Tech website, or head over to LinkedIn and join their 4000 followers. Look. Thank you. It's great to get your thoughts on networking. You know, I think that preparedness is, is a really, is a really great way for that awkwardness to be moved and to to get the ball rolling. And I love that you're so detailed in capturing the data and putting that immediately into different buckets in the CRM, because a lot of people, you know, they'll, they'll have one or two business cards on their desk, but it takes weeks for them to get sorted, and there's no movement, there's no follow through, and that follow up, so is so critical. So those are really helpful. And you're obviously, you know, you're outside of, like, networking. You're trying your hand through Ivy Tech at lots of different ways of selling, right? I saw your promo video. You're creating live action content. You're doing so many different things. Where would you say? Where does networking fit in the kind of grand scheme? Is it right at the top? Is it kind of mid tier? And actually, social media posts are great for you in terms of new business, where does networking set?

Carmen Lincolne 28:02

Yeah, it's right at the top for us, networking and referrals. I think until we reach really big critical mass, you know, where Google rewards us massively with being spot number one, we'll be focusing on networks and referrals and ambassadors for a while longer, and then our content strategy supports that, because we, you know, the process is kind of, you make the connection, you invite them to LinkedIn, to follow us or follow me, and then we kind of stay on the radar. So one example, for example, is that we've recently, you know, started some work for someone who I met 10 years ago. She was actually my husband's very first employee when he started his FinTech company, and we hadn't spoken in 10 years, but she messaged me on LinkedIn just because I'm, I mean, I didn't ask her, actually, specifically, but I assume, because I'm constantly in people's face with my posts, she's like, Oh yeah, come and like, she's nice, and she does something with developers, so I'll give her a ping, and we chatted, and, you know, worked a little bit with her. So that is, I think, a really cool example of also long term networks. I think networks very rarely go from need to say, or the next week. It can be a year or two, or, in this case, 10,

Alastair Cole 29:19

well, and that's a brilliant way to finish, because it is a long game, like sales, networking is a long game. You've got to be in it for a long time. You just got to keep doing the things, keep showing up, keep recording the data. So you know, if it's not working for you, if you're watching or listening and it's not working for you, keep going. Don't give up.

Carmen Lincolne 29:37

Yeah, and enjoy it. I think I love it because of the human connection. I'm like, even if no sale comes, you know, I've still met a really interesting person, and I learned something, and maybe I even added a little bit of value.

Alastair Cole 29:51

Well, you've added loads of value for me and our audience, I'm sure, today. So thank you very much for your time. Carmen,

Carmen Lincolne 29:58

Thank you as well. It was really fun. Yeah, yeah, great.

Alastair Cole 30:02

Then our next show is live a week today, at 12 o'clock. It's Kieran and I back talking about how to land bigger fish faster, closing those enterprise deals. So accelerating your deal, closing process and landing those transformative deals. That's a week today. You can tune in there. You can also get any of the previous episodes at TheSalesScoop.com you can head over there if you're interested in previous shows or what's coming up next. That's us for today. So thank you, Carmen again. Thanks for your time and expertise. If anybody wants to know more, head over to Ivy-Tech.com or find Carmen on LinkedIn. I think you she'll probably get in front of you on LinkedIn, if you're if you're

Carmen Lincolne 30:56

connected, yep. All right, some of the startup events in London. Indeed, I am still out after 7pm occasionally. Good, good. Thank you for the chat. It was great, and I love that you're putting on the show just helping us find out, figuring out how sales works.

Alastair Cole 31:14

Oh, that's very kind of you. Okay, that's it. Thanks. Carmen, thanks everybody. Goodbye. Goodbye, bye, bye, bye.